E80 | Trevor Rappa talks Return to Sport on the Flight Performance Podcast

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On today's episode, Trevor joins the Flight Performance Podcast to discuss return to sport.

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Episode Transcription: What's going on guys. We've got episode 8 of the Flight Performance and Fitness Podcast and we got special guests, Trevor Rappa from Resilient Performance and Physical Therapy. Um, Trevor what's going on? Not much. How about you guys? Thanks for having me on, I really appreciate the opportunity to talk shop with you guys. Thanks for coming on brother. Um, we're gonna jump right in. Um, so I understand you have a product coming out and it's some changes, direction, return to play. Um, yep. Yeah. So our next course that we're launching is called return to sport acceleration and agility. So it's how, kind of the methods that we use from a number of different mentors that we've had and how do we apply them in a system to get an outfit back on the court safely or back in their sport safely after, you know, whether it's a major injury or a surgery, or even just an off season. I think. There's this idea that athletes after injury need to be treated special and they definitely do for a certain period of time, but ultimately like the methods that got them into their sport and got them playing at a high level and kind of sport need to be implemented at the right time in the return to sport process, or how do we kind of. Take somebody from an acute injury, whether it's post-op or just an acute injury and acute ankle sprain, soft tissue, injury, hamstrings, full, whatever it is, and how do we get them to be comfortable and confident and safe, to be able to get back on our, on the court and play to the level that they need to be able to play at. So we go through a lot of different things from. Um, just the biomechanical principles and laws of physics, of, of how people move and why they moved away. You do, and what are the different movement, patterns and skills that athletes of every sport have to be able to execute at a high level. And then how do we take, you know, somebody who doesn't have the strength requirements, how do we get them strong safely? How do we get them progressed in through different plyometrics? How do we prepare them for the physical demands of their sport? Um, to again, ultimately just get them back and playing at the level that they need to, because if you look at tons of athletes, give back to sports, whatever that kind of means, but they're like a shell of their former self. So our goal is always like to make people like just a Savage again, when they get back on the field. And I think that's, that's kind of the mindset that I, I bring to the athletes that I work with is I want them to not only get back on the field and to be able to play whatever that means, but to actually play at a high level. So. That's kind of the goal with this course. And so, I mean, it sounds like there's a, a huge strengthening conditioning kind of emphasis on the, on the whole therapy process. Um, we're, we're both, we're either you guys train conditioning coaches before. Yeah. So all three of us, uh, who own resilient, uh, me, Greg and Doug all were strength, conditioning coaches prior to becoming physical therapists. Um, and all of a sudden played college sports. So all of us have like an athletic performance background, which has really influenced how we approach the rehab process really with anybody. Um, because I think that's so much of it too, especially when it comes to return to sport is it's. You have to understand the demands of what the app needs to get back to, and then to be able to kind of whittle down through layers of regressions and progressions to get to like where they currently are. So how do we take them for when they, where they currently are, and then get them to where they need to be without skipping huge steps. That's where other injuries and things occur in the rehab process is when. When, you know, you're doing something, they don't have the requisites for whether it's a change of direction or agility based activity and they aren't really ready for it. So how do we kind of determine if somebody is ready for that based upon like the actual training process, because that's kind of something that we always talk about is like, The assessment is training. Like what you can do and training tells me what you can do, and if it's easy, then I got to find a way to make harder. So understanding that that idea I think is, uh, has been a huge impact for us as both like performance coaches and as physical therapists to again, kind of take somebody along the entire spectrum from post-op surgery to getting them back on the field. Yeah, that's awesome. I mean, I feel like we ended up talking about this kind of like all the time already on this podcast, but yeah, it's, it seems like the issue a lot of times tends to be, you know, if a patient goes from, you know, it's like they're doing table exercises and then the right of way, or jumping into like a relatively intense plyometric. Or the kind of speed movement that, you know, I mean, it's just not, we skipped so many steps in between of, you know, all these things, all these progressions that they need to be able to do with really good competency to be able to get to that level. And you just kind of see that, that gap a lot of times. Yeah. And it's, I would say like, you know, we see it ourselves. Like we will have somebody who gets referred to the gym to start like the. Performance training stuff, because maybe they didn't do the rehab with us, but the coaches at the gym trust us. So they'll send them to us for the first session for an eval. And it's like, what's, you know, on there, they're there, um, protocol from the surgeon it's like right now, you're supposed to start change of direction and return to sport a sports specific training. However, they kind of phrase it and it's like, what's the hardest thing you've done. It's like I did a 50 pound leg press. That's like the hardest thing you've done four months and she's like, that's not a joke. It's like in the four months after surgery, the hardest thing you've done is a 50 pound like breast. And now you are quote unquote ready because of a healing timeline that you can now start to do these like the most intense activities that we can do in whether it's a rehab setting or in a performance, strength and conditioning setting. It's like that's, that's, doesn't make sense. So either we'll continue to, you know, they'll go into that change of direction. Yeah. Agility stuff about the high level heart activities and just not do well, possibly hurt themselves. Cause they're, they're just, it's no longer a safe activity because again, they don't have the requisites to be able to do those things safely. So there's again like that's where, like the kind of the gap is in this kind of rehab performance training thing. And I think. It's being able to communicate with other coaches, communicate with the doctors, opening up how the communication flows within all the parties involved, including the athletes can help kind of seal up some of those gaps and fix, you know, some of those gaps and create some of the bridges that, that people need to just be safe when they get back back the sport. Cause too many people get cleared and then all of a sudden. They don't like their sport possibly because they're just not good anymore. Right? Like, do you see that too? Or they get hurt when they get back to sport, because again, they didn't go through an extensive and have enough progression in the rehab and training process to be confident and be comfortable once they get back on the field. Yeah, that's awesome. Um, and honestly, what you've been talking about was kind of segwaying right into the first question that we really want to get into with it. And that's, um, what are some markers and, um, I guess some checklists points that you kind of have maybe set up in your systems for. Implementing change of direction and progressing change of direction. And, you know, really knowing where an athlete is. Um, and kind of finding that from, I guess, maybe from your evaluation process and then, you know, what are some markers that you're kind of putting in place so that you know where to go with them? That's a, it's a really a great question because there's so many things that, um, I think that we look at often without even. Understanding that that is making an impact on our decisions. You know what I mean? Like, like we have so many things that when they come in, like I kind of do a quick email almost every single time. I see somebody at chucks ranges, Ranger's emotion, just to make sure things kind of look how I want them to look so to speak. So like, if we're gonna go kind of start like at the far end of the spectrum, it's like, we have to make sure people, when we're talking about coming off of a surgery, it's like they have the range of motion back. They have the local. Muscular endurance and muscular strength to be able to control whatever joint was cut into or, or tissue was injured, whatever it kind of is. And then can they use that joint, how they should with just normal strength and conditioning type of moving parents, like can make squat, like they should, can they lunge, like they should. And they dead lift. Like they should just all of those things and make sure that they can do them appropriately, um, with high levels of competence. Um, so that's kind of like the. Beginning of that whole process. Right. But I think about change of direction and agility. We kind of talk about that later. How change of direction and agility or different things, and people do agility different than they do a change of direction drill. Um, but ultimately like the ability to change to change direction is redirect our momentum. So you have to be able to apply force in the ground to be able to change our momentum. Anytime you're changing momentum, anytime that you're redirecting your center of mass, there was a breaking. Component to it and there's a propulsive component to it. So I think about it in that way. It's like most people, when we think of weight room stuff, it's very like propulsive it's concentric muscle activity. Versus when we. Think about that ability to change direction, there was a huge, essential component that athletes need to meet to be able to handle. So my first step is I do a ton of like snap downs, tons of different variations of snap downs to make sure that like they're loading the joints, how I want them to load them. So that's kind of my first checklist of like, can you do these things well enough? Can you handle, uh, you know, Oh, a higher level force and just like a body weight movement. Cause we're adding some momentum with, with aggressive arm actions and kind of pulling yourself into a fall and hitting the brakes and stopping yourself immediately. Because if you can't do that, then it's like, well then why am I going to go do something way harder? Like actual shuffle cuts or low box shovels. And some of the other things that we do. You got a question though? Do you do, um, Any external load with that generally, do you end up adding external load or you try to increase the progression more through like velocity and in like intent through velocity and intent? Initially I will add later on like some of the fake throw series, like the stuff that daily task created. Cause that is a great way to get people to just. Turn on the brakes, but like just adding like first we'll start with tow drops right up in the balls of feet, fall, catch yourself. That's kind of my first starting point. And then after that, then we can add in the different arm actions where you're adding that angular velocity of the upper body to again, just increase the momentum that the whole, that the lower extremity has to stop. Um, and I'll do like. Just regular with, with getting into a split stance position, going into like a lunge position. You can, I mean, there's just so many endless variations that you can do with that. Um, so that's kind of like typically where I start and then from there it's like, okay, what's the next level of an egocentric activity. It's going to be some form of jumping. So it starting with like easy double leg hops, it started progressing to a single, like hops and skipping and just all of those. Applying metric activities that they ultimately need to be able to do in sport, because that's what change of direction and cutting and all that stuff is is, is it is plyometric. And it kind of, I think we don't think of it oftentimes as that, but it really is because of that large East central component and then using the energy from the East central contraction to then move your center of mass somewhere else. Um, so that's kind of how I kind of start with that progression of what are my markers of what they're comfortable with and that's why. I'm like, again, I reference lead TAF a ton in this course, he's just been a huge influence on me. And when he, his, how he breaks down the seven fundamental moving patterns that athletes do, I think when you understand that it makes what. It makes what we see so much simpler. Um, because then it lets you a progression for someone like me, where I'm taking somebody from like acute injury back to sport. My progression is so linear and step-by-step because like I cool. Once you can do the snap downs, right. And we can do some, some easy jumps knowledge, just like sort of practicing these patterns and skills. And that's another thing. I think it makes a difference. You can introduce all of these athletic movement patterns at relatively low levels because of the low velocities early on in the rehab process. It just gills gives them time to practice the skill itself because all of them are skills and it gives them time to build confidence as they excuse me, to build confidence as they, again, just get comfortable moving their body that has been. Coming off of an injury. Cause cause so much of it too is just confidence. Like it takes a long time for athletes to get confident, again, coming up with an injury and like, how are you going to be confident if you're not practicing stuff? So how do we practice it at a low level? And then how do we progress it throughout? And we progress it with different loads and velocities and speeds and just increase the intensity throughout the whole process. Yeah, I love what you said there. Just, I mean, really just with, you know, the different contractions, you know, a lot of the weight room stuff being obviously concentric and I'm starting out with a lot of more isometric and East centric work because I mean, that's where you're going to get a lot more of the sensory motor competency. And when things are a lot slower, um, that's when they're actually going to be able to feel their bodies a little bit more. And that's where you can kind of coach those positions a little bit more. And like you, like, you alluded to like, there's a lot less stress there, right? When there's no crazy amount of external load or there's no. Um, crazy amount of velocity or magnitude to their movements. It's like, that's where we can really drill home what we want them to get back to. And just in a much more simplistic form. Well, and not to mention, you're also slowly building the tissues back to a point, you know, it's like, you're, you're doing enough volume of reps at this kind of low intensity, low magnitude to build back up. So you can actually ramp that ramp, that intensity up. And you know, so it's like a combination of practice and actual building of strength. Yeah, exactly. And I think people like undervalue that like tissue idea. It's like, if you haven't loaded that tissue and then you go and try to load it in appropriately, whether it is with too much speed or, or, or too much volume or whatever it is, it's like, that's a recipe for like some aches and pains and just kind of don't need to be there. So like during that whole earlier part, when we're restoring range of motion, getting shrink back, it's like, yeah, it's just tons of isometric or static holds and just different variations that get them creating. Tension in good position. That's going to control the joints, how they need to be controlled later on as they get into like, you know, performing a hip turn and a rotational cut and all these different higher level movements. That again, you need a lot of strength and a lot of control to be able to handle yeah. As far as volume with that. Um, so I mean, I think a lot of it. Is obviously going to be, you know, there's going to be a level of like coaches and just kind of be a judge when the competency has sort of dropped off and that's probably time to cut it off. But do you have any ways that you're tracking the amount of load, the amount of volume as far as like. You know, numbers of changing directions or that kind of thing, or number that really depends on like the intensity, um, of what we're currently doing. Like, so what I'm introducing, like those athletic movement patterns and like low level cuts. And I say low level, meaning like their momentum going in and out of the cut is not necessarily super high. Um, I w I just, haven't gone to whatever speed they feel comfortable with. So I'm not really coaching. I'm not really trying to get them to push themselves super hard. Like I'm not saying go as fast as you possibly can. I'm like going at a speed that feels comfortable where I, again, like they're hitting the positions that I want them to hit is if an athlete is not strong enough and they're trying to do an activity at all. Add a force or a velocity that they're not comfortable with. They're going to do it inappropriately. Like they're going to use a strategy that I'm kind of not looking for. Um, so that, that doesn't really answer the first part of the question, but it's like then later on, as they are performing like hard cuts and hard changes of direction, I would say it's not necessarily. I don't have like a specific number in my, to like I spend an hour with, with each one of my clients. So within that hour, in terms of like, after a good warmup and whatever you want to do with the first 15 minutes of it, it's like we probably have 15 minutes where we're doing some hard change of direction, acceleration work, which is, that's kind of my, my break in it. Cause I'm like, once I know that they're a little bit tired or once I can see there's a little bit of fatigue, I'm like, it just, it's just not worth it. So I kind of keep that stuff short cause I want. Really really high intensity work so they can practice the skills and actually get better at performing those skills before any sort of fatigue really set then. So I, I keep my volume Scott's stuff relatively low. So I'll probably do, I'm just making this up, but it's like, I probably realistically do four to five. Different drills, you know, with, with one to two to three cuts. And you're probably doing like four to five sets of each one of those. So if you like do the math, it's probably like, like, you know, 40 to 50 changes of direction, roughly kind of somewhere in there. Give, give or take. But if I ever see somebody that looks like just not passing my eye tests anymore, it's like, it's over. And that's why I think, like, we always talk about like having a model of movement. If you have a model of movement, if they're meeting my model movement, like I'll keep going. But if it starts to kind of not be something I'm happy with, or I just see somebody out, like then it's too, it's, we're done. There's no reason to introduce any risk into the equation when it's really unnecessary. Especially when, again, I think about like the timeline of return to sport is so important. Like if I have six months or eight months with somebody. Today in month, three, doesn't really matter that much. Meaning like, why am I like one, one more rep today? If that sets us back, it's just not worth it. Versus if you have somebody who comes into you and like, they gotta be ready to play. And seven, eight days, you're probably going to have a little and more risk because you have to make sure they're actually prepared. So all that stuff kind of comes into consideration as well. Uh, I like what you said there, it's an interesting way to think about it. Uh, um, almost not coaching intent in some ways, um, with certain things it's like not putting pressure on them to give more than they have from a, from a competency standpoint, which is obviously makes, you know, it makes a lot of sense from a rehab standpoint, but it's not something I really thought of in that way. Yeah. Like I say, I think if you were to take that idea into like, More of a performance, like strength and conditioning setting. Like that matters in terms of like, when you're performing these drills with an off season or like within a week, you know, like if you have a game. Sunday, whatever you're talking about football, it's like, yeah. Then what you're doing, you don't need super high level stuff on like Monday, Tuesday, but yeah, maybe I want to really prime the nervous system up on maybe Friday, Saturday, where I'm going to be. I want this to be hard rolling, doing a couple of reps and I want that super, super high level and intensity with this drill, but that's why like, You can, and you can see it too. Like again, I always kind of have, like, my lens is, is like the injured athlete side of things. So when I think about this stuff, like I'm always picturing like my athletes to one legs hurt and the other one's not hurt. If I have them do the same drill as comfortable as they at whatever speed they feel comfortable with to each side, like it may look different on one side versus the other. Because each leg is doing something different. So all those things kind of tell me, like, all right, cool. Like you're just still not, you're not as strong on that limb as you need to be. You're not as comfortable as you need to be. You're not as confident as you need to be. Yeah. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Um, so our next question is more kind of in the, I guess, the strength exercise realm. Um, so I think the pendulum has kind of swung a little bit in this train conditioning industry is almost away from some of the kind of like heavier compound exercises, which probably for the most part is a good thing in some ways, too, depending on the exercise. But, um, in your model, do you look at more, you know, cause obviously when we're talking about return to play. The things that are actually involved in play are going to be more the, the change of direction, speed, agility, portion of it. Um, so do you look at your strength portion, the strength exercises, um, as things that we're just trying to kind of drive more tissue changes, force production, I purge your fee. Um, or are you looking to put them in more kind of. You know, positions that they're going to be in, in their sport and have it be almost more sports specific in that, in that realm, as far as what, you know, the target of the positions. Yeah. That's I would say like that tie. So answer's probably both maybe, but like early on, like again with an athlete coming off of an injury, it's like if they don't have the strength requirements to be able to. To produce the force of the need to produce, to move how they need to move. And in my mind, I'm like, well, then it doesn't matter. You have to get somebody strong initially, like if they are actually, we can, I think that's kind of a, that's like another topic you can kind of talk about is it's like, I think way too many athletes are like, Oh, you're weak. You need to get strong. And it's like, yeah, maybe they're like kind of weak overall, but it's not like there's one part of their body is so weak that it's actually impacting how they move. Versus if you have an athlete coming off of an ACL injury and I got the patella tendon cut, it's like. Their anterior knee is so sensitive. They have atrophy in their quad. Like they're going to move differently. I don't care. Like you almost came to make an argument about that. Right? So it's like that athlete a hundred percent needs to increase the force production capabilities of their quad. So then it's, what's the best way to get strong. It's like, it's lifting weights. Like there's not, you know, it's like, it's kind of simple. So we, we do a ton of like weightlifting kind of stuff early on. Um, But again, then just like any good program it's like, as you get closer to the performance that they need, like, you're not doing one RMS, you're not doing heavy, slow stuff. You're, you're changing it up. So we really do follow like the could pay periodization with, with, uh, strength and conditioning programming throughout the whole return process, because strength is protective and strength is super important for every athlete. Um, I don't necessarily like. In terms of like weight room stuff, meaning like free weights, things like that. Like, I don't make up a ton of like crazy funky exercises that try to be sports specific. Cause then I think, again, you're just introducing like, like in the weight room, like you're not moving anywhere, you know what I mean? Like you're not covering space in the weight room. You're staying still and you're moving up and down. If you're squatting and deadlifting or whatever you're laying on your back and you're benching or you're pulling your self up and down, if you're doing pull-ups versus like. Change of direction, sports, specific type stuff is all about like, how are you moving your center of mass, like vertically, horizontally, like just all in every direction possible. So that's when, like, if I see something, if I see something more on that end of things, instead of like, you know, Putting a weight vest on them or trying to like increase the load of the activity. That's when we use bands to create or to load or unload certain positions in certain joints. Um, and then I have gotten creative with like, you know, some different like cable pull arounds and things like that to really emphasize like loading and certain positions. Um, but again, like to me, I'm like, I'm not getting somebody strong by doing that stuff. I'm getting them comfortable by doing that stuff. You know what I mean? Like I'm getting them comfortable in those positions to again, produce force in those positions, but it's not like, like you're not going to get strong, doing my little cable pull around that. I call it with, you know, say half a stack of, of, of a cable machine. It's like, you're gonna get strong, like squatting or split squat. And you're doing step ups or you're doing something where, where you actually have like an appreciable load. Yeah. I mean, I think one thing it's like. There's obviously like a diff big difference, like a bat, like a back squat. And then we're talking about like a real sports specific movement, like a change of direction. Um, but then there's also this other realm of movements that are more, you know, lateral lunge kind of like that kind of thing, which is a little bit more on that realm of, you know, in frontal plane movement, getting into your hips. You know what I mean? I guess it's like, that's kinda more like, like question, like how much are you thinking about that? Or. Based on the time you have, are you, you're going to gear most of it towards like, alright, strength. We're just going to maintain some strength, essentially build as much as you kind of need from just like a perspective of overall kind of strength and then sort of, yeah. And I would say like, we do what we can to build as much strength as we can, depending on like what the athlete. Depending on the time that I have with math, because there are a number of athletes that I work with where like they have a sprint coach, so I'm not doing this dual thing. Like they have a sprint coach or their strength work. I'm taking care of like the speed, agility, change direction, plyometric end of things, which is cool. But then I do have other athletes where like they have a home gym, so I'll do the programming for them. And like, you know, again, I think about. Like, like the lateral lunge example. It's like, should you be able to do a lateral launch with like some load? Yes. Do I need you to like load to crap out of a lateral lunch? No. Like that's not going to get you that shrunk. So again like that to me is like, I have this like movement competency that I want to see people be able to execute all of these different. Just movement patterns in general. But again, in terms of like, if I need something to actually get strong, it's like, we're doing trap bar deadlift. We're doing, you know, front squat, we're doing heavy goblet squat. We're doing double kettlebell, front squat. We're doing just, you know, reverse lunges. We're doing step ups. We're doing just the basics really, really well. Um, because. I think, you know, to a certain degree, it's like forces force. You would just have to have the force production capabilities, but then it's through practice and through just other means that you learn how to like, use that force effectively when it comes to like the change of direction type of work. Does that answer the question a little bit better? Yeah, definitely. No. It's like the, you know, the lateral lumps can build context for the main show, which is the movement in that plane at a high velocity with a heart, you know, Hardy centric. Yeah. In, in, in, you know, cause like you, especially like on social media, like you see stuff it's like we're working on, on, you know, Uh, cut here in this position and I'm like, no, you're not like you're doing a lateral lunge. You're not working on a cut, like a cut has a philosophy to it. Like a cut has a cut. Doesn't take five seconds. Like you're allowed to lunch takes five seconds. You may be getting to like similar joint positions and going through a similar like movement sequence. And loading similar muscles, but it's not a cut. It's completely different. So, right. You know, so it's like, you have to, if you want to get strong and doing that great, you know, do what you need to do, but don't say that like that is transferring to other activities that are just completely different in, in nature. It's like doing, you know, if you can push a Prowler with a thousand pounds on it, that doesn't mean you're going to be like, have the greatest five-year acceleration in the world. It's like, no, you are really good at super long ground contacts and pushing forever. But you don't have forever to push when you're accelerating. Maybe you're building some specific strength, most positions, and that's cool, but it's not the same skill because they're all of those movements, sprinting, accelerating, shuffling lateral running, jumping, hit turning, like all of them are skills and it takes, takes reps in practice for those skills to actually get better at them. Awesome. Um, one question before we go to the next thing, that's going to be a pretty big change of pace just about that. Um, what are your thoughts as far as like how much queuing are you doing on, on a lot of these chain? A lot of these drills essentially. Cause that's another thing I know, like we're pretty intense about. Having things look the way that we like the, you know, we have a pretty in a pretty, you know, stone movement model and, you know, we want joints to be lined up a certain way. And, you know, I would say we use a lot of the Lee Taft tools, a lot of different back tools to kind of get what we're, we're looking for. Um, but how much are you trying to let the athlete organize that themselves and how much are you really? As far as their queuing, if I see something that. So that's an interesting point. Cause there's, there's a lot of things that I'll see with athletes that I'm like, They're trying to do that because they've been told to do that before and it's wrong. Right? So like, uh, a hip turn is a really good example of that. Like if you work with basketball players, a lot of massive players have been taught to do a drop step instead of a hip turn. So it's like, okay, so what are you doing? And it's like, Oh, I don't, I'm trying to pivot out of this. I'm trying to drop stuff out of this. And it's like, all right, just let your feet move. So like, I have a ton, I shouldn't say a ton. I have like six or seven cues probably that I am like on repeat with all day long, just to get athletes out of their head and moving. Cause if you good, I think if the. Intense city and their intent is high enough. They're going to do what I'm looking for, if they're strong enough. And if I put them in a good position and if it's at the right skill for them, right. So it's like, if you, especially with like, like harder agility stuff where there's more like environmental things going on and the task is a little bit more complex and there's other things that they got to kind of handle. At one time. It's like, if there's, if, if that level is too high for them, they may freeze and not move, like they're supposed to move. So it's like we have to give them the appropriate task for where they are from a skill standpoint. So sometimes like if I give somebody something and I just don't like the way it looks on my kid, it's probably just too hard for them right now. So I got to dial down just kind of what I'm doing. Um, But then there's like tons of cues. Like when I'm doing some like reactive ball throwing and getting people just to find different push-off angles and reposition their feed and just become fluid and dynamic and their movement where it's like, my cues become very simple. And it's like, give me that, just make that first step quicker. Just let your feet move. Cause cause athletes, I think get to, you know, we, we become perfectionists with things. So it's like, they're thinking about a million things. They're thinking they should do this. And then it's like, no, dude, if you just let yourself go. You're probably going to do it. Right. So I try to keep my cues like really open-ended and simple. And, and, um, I'm not afraid to like, change my cue on the next rapid, if it didn't, if for whatever reason it didn't click with that athlete. Right. Like, like I, again, I have, I know what I'm in almost every single drill that I do. I know exactly what I want to happen. And if it doesn't happen, then maybe I got to change the constraints of the drill. Like there's so many different things that we can manipulate to get the movement to be executed, kind of like we want to. Right. Um, and I think a lot of it too, it's like, I think it's got to make mistakes. So you have to let them fail. Like fail safely is obviously a huge thing. Like you're not going to let somebody get hurt, but it's like, you gotta let them make mistakes and, and letting them, giving them feedback on like, okay. Did you feel what happened here or why do you think that happened? That's like a, I think I did this. And again, exactly like athletes intuitively kind of know these things. I think bringing them into the process of like the wrong learning is so huge with just having discussions and just getting feedback from them. Um, so yeah, like I, I want to keep things I don't want to over cue and I don't want to get, especially with like, Movement stuff that is, you've got a million, you've got arms and legs moving and things rotating. And this arm going here and this leg pushing back there, it's like so many things are happening. And when people focus on like very specific things, like, feel your toes or keep your chest up. And there's a bunch of cues that I just don't like that I have a ton of athletes come in thinking they should be doing this because a sport coacher or other physical therapist or somebody in their life, a parent, whoever has told them something that I'm like. I don't want you doing that. Like, don't worry about that. Here's what I want you to do. Just move, just move quick, be fast, let your feet move. So again, try to keep things as like simplistic as I possibly can, because I think, you know, movement is so complex and it like, when we think that there's like one way for things to be done, it's like, no, there's, there's. I would say there's like there's standards, right? There's like, there's the basic things that athletes do, but everybody has their own little variations with things. But again, it's still kind of like be meeting this model of movement that everyone should have. And I say that in this course, that's coming out. It's like I have my model movement. And that's pretty much what I talk about. You don't have to agree with me, but you got to have something because there's no way that we can coach somebody. If we don't have a model of movement. To correct her, like coaches know what they want to see a slot look like. Yeah, but so if your squad doesn't look like that, it's like, what do you do? You give them a cue, you breeze, their heels, you something, you perform some sort of, sort of intervention to get it, to look like you want it to look like. So I think that's the lens that we've got to take to dynamic athletic movement is that same thing as like, you've got to know what you're looking for. To understand like the variations or the, um, the kind of faults that can occur. So then there's no other way that you can intervene. If you don't have an idea of like what you should be looking for to allow you to make decisions about where to go. Exactly. Exactly. That's phenomenal. And I think one of the biggest things that you hit on there was just exercise selection that it's really a long. Also as practitioners and strength coaches to, you know, kind of get our ego aside a little bit and say, Hey, you know, I actually chose the wrong exercise. Maybe they're not necessarily ready for that. Let's let's pivot and go this way. Or, Hey, let's add some constraints to this to actually get them to perform what it is that we want them to perform. Um, I was actually going through with one of our interns actually earlier today, just. Um, we had SLDS and the SLDS is probably something that so many people, somebody like early stream coaches are just very married to, and probably comes like out of a lot of Mike Boyle stuff. And, you know, it's just, I don't know why for so long, I was just so eager to like jam SL deal into so many programs. And then I'm like, no one can SL DL. Well, no one can, no one can. Like unilaterally load this lag and keep their hips from like moving all over the place. I'm like ever since we started to use the intervention of kickstand ordeals it's I really don't even program them anymore. And I'm watching someone do a pretty bad SLD. I go over, I give them a couple of cues. I try to cue him to put his hips in the right place. Then my intern comes over and she's like, Oh, like, The cues didn't really work. I was like, yeah, like this is a perfect example of like, that was just a bad exercise. He shouldn't be doing that. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And like, that's okay. Just not ready. Like that's all right. This doesn't really matter. Yeah. Yeah. Like I, I tell my athletes all the time, if I try something, I was like, Oh, that was a bad, that was a bad cue. Like, like I made you do the wrong thing because I said something that just didn't make sense for you. Or it's like, yeah, I gave you something that was just kind of inappropriate right now. It's like, we want to, I think it was one of the coaches from ifs. I don't remember if it was, I think it was, um, hope. I think it was Jay Chung said it, it was like, it's like, you should give athletes exercises that they're going to be successful with. That doesn't mean, like it's not challenging or it's not difficult, but they have to be successful with it. And I definitely think that's the case with like change of direction and agility type, you know, speed work things in general. It's like you to give them something that's going to make them like, like, Oh yeah, I did that really well because if you just feel like you suck at stuff all the time, it's not fun. Like, like, you know, it's like asking me to shoot a three pointer. It's like, I'm terrible. Like if you had me shoot only three pointers, I'm going to miss 99% of them. But it's like, create, let me start with layups first. Okay, teach me how to do a jumper and then give me a free throw. And, you know, it's like, there's just lots of ways we can, we can progress things. And the thing about it too. All right. Uh, the thing about it is it sucks both ways. Cause like, if I'm watching, I don't want to watch some kid do his shit and he doesn't want to just get continuously queued on something and get frustrated with it. So it's just like, what are we doing here? Like totally. I was just going to say, like, I think the more you're cuing you're probably. Realizing that you put a bad exercise out there. If I have to queue over and over and over again. And you know, I'm just like fumbling over cues and just throwing these things out, you know, it's probably a bad exercise selection and probably should give them something that you don't have to queue as much. Obviously you need to be able to give them cues and get them better at those things. But if I'm, you know, Hey, get your hips over here and get your shoulders over here, push off the ground this way. Use your arms, use this. It's like, ah, dude, I gave you way too much and you're just paralyzed right now. Yeah, absolutely. And like, you see that like on the athlete face when that kind of stuff happens, it was like, all right. Let's, uh, I'm gonna, I'm going to backpedal out of this one and we're going to adjust it. Um, yeah. Uh, donut, you ready to move on from there? Yeah, no, I mean, I love the content that we've been getting through. So this is a little bit of a pivot, uh, from the X's and O's of kind of what you do. And it's probably a little bit. Um, more, more close to home. I know Dylan and I went into the, into flight performance, not really having much of a business perspective at all. And, you know, we made a lot of mistakes. So we love to hear people, you know, similar age, running their own businesses and stuff like that. What were some things that you maybe would take back or it would've done things differently. And then I guess what was probably the number one thing that has been very successful for you guys? Yeah. I mean, I love thinking about that stuff too. Um, Because there's so many things, like we talk about it all time. It's like we, we had a lot of things that like for, I can't even explain the reason, but to happen for, you know, good results came from it. Right. Um, I would say like the number one thing that w. We were fortunate with was that like, we were pretty good at like what we did right away. So we were the same boat. Like I grew up with like my parents own a business together, like my entire life. So I've always had like that kind of entrepreneurial, like risk. Like I'm not risk averse. I'm happy to, just to like, I believe in myself, I'll try things. Like I'm not afraid to fail. Like. So that's a huge plus, but then when you like get into the real world and you have a business and you don't know what to do from like the business to have point is like, Oh shit, man, we made so many mistakes and like trusted, you know, listen to things. Cause I'm sure you guys have the same boat like that. The number of people that like, Hey, we'll do this for you and we're going to help you out. It's like, I think like the number one. Learning lesson, like right away, like in our first it was like, you cannot rely on anyone, but yourself. I would say that is like the number one lesson that I learned, like in the first year you're learning the business. And like, part of it, I think is like, you know, my mid twenties, like naiveness and thinking that like, you know, everybody wants to help each other and back kind of stuff. And it's like, that's kind of like, not the case necessarily. Like I think people have really good intentions and, and I don't think anybody has, I really don't think people have like bad intentions, but. Not everybody follows through with what they do. So I think, you know, there's a lot of opportunities that we thought were going to come because people were going to give them to us or help us with them or whatever. But it's like, those things fall through left and right. All the time. So I think like learning that you have to only rely on like who your team is and is huge. And then I would say like the number one. One of my, like our mistakes that I would say all of us, um, as business owners, you feel that because like your business is your baby, like, it's your lifeblood. It's what brings you income. It's what keeps a roof over your head. Like, it's everything you, you don't want to like give up responsibilities and divvy out responsibilities. Like let go of some of the other parts of the business. Um, we're lucky that there's three of us. So we each kind of have our own responsibility within running the business, but then it got to the point where it's like, We had finally built up a caseload enough, but we're still trying to do all this other business things that you kind of get, get pushed aside and you forget about, and he was not thinking on top of it. So it took us like way too long to hire an admin. But like once we did and she's just changed our business and it's been ridiculous just to have somebody who. Kind of, you know, keeps all the pieces together a little bit more than benefits. Three of us were because he gets so focused on just like your day to day treating or coaching or whatever it is. Um, so yeah, I think like I could list a million more mistakes that we've made, but I think that's like the, the big one was like, don't be like, find the right people to give responsibility to, but like half the, you cannot try to do everything yourself. I think like your work-life balance and stress discos. All out of whack. If you're trying to handle everything yourself, like you've got to find good people to trust and, and good people to kind of like bring into the family and bring into the community. Yeah. I mean, both those points that you brought up are legitimate. Probably wouldn't be, you know, top two points are, you know, just delegate, delegate, delegate, and bring the right people in and. You know, um, and, and, you know, like you said, it's, if you're really talented at your craft and you're really passionate about it, people are going to see that and people are going to want to work with you. And I think that's, you know, I don't, I say it all the time. Like we screwed up so many things from the business perspective, but that's the one thing that probably allowed us to keep our doors open. Um, and those first couple of years, it was just that everybody loves what they experienced, that they got with us. But yeah, man, it's got to look back on sometimes, you know, I agree. I mean, that's something, you know, people ask us about that, like running your own PT business and stuff, and it's like, you have to be a good clinician first. Like, I don't care. You can have the greatest business plan. You could have the greatest funding and the greatest facility, like, whatever. But if you like, just don't have the skills yet. And it doesn't, you know, it's not like saying you will never, but it's like, you're just not. Confident in your own ability right away. It's like, then don't do it. Like you have to have some hope to be able to prove your worth with what your skills are first at something. Um, yeah. Like, you know, I am sure you guys have experienced this. Do like everybody thinks owning a business is like sunshine and rainbows and it's like, it is not like there's, there's dark days. There's great days. There's bad. It's all over the place. That's just kind of like the way it is, which personally that's one of the things that I enjoy about it. Um, but it's like, If you don't, if you don't have, like I said, if you don't have those skills to be able to handle those things, it's just, it's not, it's not worth the stress cause it's not for everybody. Like, I, I tell people that all the time it's like you're an owner and a business is not for everybody. No, I mean, I think one, I mean, we just spoke to it. I mean, what you said is just so true because I mean, we just spoke to it off, um, off recording that it's, you know what I think what does allowing our busy, both our businesses to survive it right now with the, through all, you know, so many gems closing down throughout COVID and what's, you know, allowing us to survive is the, you know, the attention to detail to what we actually do. And the fact that, you know, like our number one goal from the beginning was. To be really the best we can be at our craft, you know? And then it's right. Obviously the financial, you know, the business aspect is, is amazingly important, but it's like the, you know, our, we came in as practitioners and that was kind of the, that was our role. Initially not business owners, you know, it's like, Sorry, that was like, that's kind of like, that was our goal too. It's like we wanted to provide like the best physical therapist therapy service we possibly could. It's like, if we wanted to have a model that makes a lot more money, it's like, we would be just like every other PT place where you go and you're treating nine people an hour for, you know, 15 minutes a person. And it's just like, that's no way from like, uh, uh, Actual therapist standpoint. It's like you would have, I know I would, I would be miserable and I would absolutely hate it and I wouldn't enjoy it, but it's, I want to enjoy what I do. So it's like, you got to design your model, just like you guys did. It's like a round something that, yeah, you got to make money. Like this is the real world. Like, you know, money is important and we all have to make a living, but how can we balance that need for like personal satisfaction? And value that like my day-to-day life has and provide the life that I want to live. It's like, how do we kind of balance those two things? And that's a hard, it's a hard reality. It really is a hundred percent man. I can can believe how parallel those, those stories. Um, well that was awesome, man. All the content. Um, so what's going on? When does the products, when is the product being released? What are the details with that? The goal is to have it out and ready to go by the end of March. Um, so we're releasing a bunch of like freebie content and kind of leading up to it. So if you guys, your listeners want to opt in to all that stuff, just go to our website and join the mailing list. Cause we got like, we did a hip lock video, we got across why we don't coach across overstep video coming out. Um, and then some film breakdown. So like, and that's one of the things that's going to be a ton in this course is I have like. A million videos of the athletes I've worked with and me filming them and then breaking it down and talking over it. Cause I think so much of that too, would just helps like the coach. I started with the coaches. I developed just seeing things I know, like personally for myself, when I started like learning a lot of this stuff that was on, like, what are you like, what is this person looking at? Like, that was always just something that I wanted to know. So I try to like bring as much of that into this course as I possibly could. So there's going to be probably like. Two to three hours of just like various video breakdowns of different drills and athletes and, um, that kind of stuff. So, yeah, so the course will be launching at the end of March. Um, and then a bunch of freebie content coming out that you guys can opt in for on our, on our website of resilient performance.com. That is awesome, man. Thanks so much for coming on. Um, um, I can tell you I'm a big fan of the podcast and all the content you guys put out. Um, one of the main reasons I wanted, I mean, I just could tell that all the. So the visions are aligned as far as the way you guys look at training and, uh, the kind of level of service you're looking and puts your, your clients and patients. So that's awesome. Thank you. Thanks, man. I really appreciate it. This is, this is a very fun podcast. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it was fun talking to you guys for all this stuff, and it's nice to meet, like to talk about like-minded people from like the business side of things too, because it is fun. Like I love talking about like the X's and O's of what we do on a day to day thing. But I think like that, like, You know, behind the curtain kind of talk about like the business side of things. Like people don't like that stuff. Yeah. I agree. Like I find that super interesting because I mean, everybody's got. You know, a dream, if you will, about like, I mean, when I was a kid, there was like, I wanted to own a gym. That was my, I was like, all I want to do is own a gym since I was like, I don't care about anything else. I just want to own a gym someday. That's like grow up and you think about it. It's like, Whoa. Yeah, that's crazy. It's just fun. Like talking about that stuff. We were in the same boat, man. Well, it's funny. Cause like the training model stuff, it's like, we're all, you know, we're all gonna have our views and stuff, but I almost felt like. With, with, you know, our situation. It's like, you almost feel like, you know, the person well already, you know what they've been through. I feel like we can just talk real about this. Yeah, exactly. Um, awesome, man. Well, thanks a lot guys. That was episode eight of forms of fitness podcast. Make sure you listen to us next week, Trevor. Thanks a lot. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.